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	<title>Comments on: EU asks Italy to stop fingerprinting Gypsies</title>
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	<link>http://futurismic.com/2008/07/10/eu-asks-italy-to-stop-fingerprinting-gypsies/</link>
	<description>Presenting the fact and fiction of tomorrow since 2001</description>
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		<title>By: Tom Marcinko</title>
		<link>http://futurismic.com/2008/07/10/eu-asks-italy-to-stop-fingerprinting-gypsies/comment-page-1/#comment-15510</link>
		<dc:creator>Tom Marcinko</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 11 Jul 2008 18:35:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://futurismic.com/?p=3606#comment-15510</guid>
		<description>anon, in the United States of America, there has to be probable cause before law enforcement stops somebody.  You don&#039;t arrest people in the hopes that you&#039;ll find something on their immigration status.  A friend of mine who is here legally was stopped because she was, apparently, driving while Mexican.  This is not America. 

(It didn&#039;t used to be, anyway, but then again until recently we also expected some brakes on the govt.&#039;s ability to eavesdrop on our phone calls and emails.)

In addition, most local police forces don&#039;t consider themselves arms of Immigration Control.  They have to deal with crimes that are actually violent, for one thing.  A lot of people reflexively applaud publicity grabs like Sheriff Arpaio&#039;s, but they don&#039;t stop to count the costs of what does &lt;i&gt;not&lt;/i&gt; get done while he&#039;s scoring cheap political points.  

Lots more in the &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.eastvalleytribune.com/page/reasonable_doubt&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;East Valley Tribune&lt;/a&gt; for anybody interested.

Yes, in an ideal world we would have more control over immigration, but &quot;build a wall&quot; or &quot;deport and displace millions&quot; are just stupid.  If you&#039;re paranoically inclined (who, me?) you might even think the system is working the way it&#039;s supposed to:  An easily intimidated pool of cheap labor &lt;i&gt;is&lt;/i&gt; the American way to some people.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>anon, in the United States of America, there has to be probable cause before law enforcement stops somebody.  You don&#8217;t arrest people in the hopes that you&#8217;ll find something on their immigration status.  A friend of mine who is here legally was stopped because she was, apparently, driving while Mexican.  This is not America. </p>
<p>(It didn&#8217;t used to be, anyway, but then again until recently we also expected some brakes on the govt.&#8217;s ability to eavesdrop on our phone calls and emails.)</p>
<p>In addition, most local police forces don&#8217;t consider themselves arms of Immigration Control.  They have to deal with crimes that are actually violent, for one thing.  A lot of people reflexively applaud publicity grabs like Sheriff Arpaio&#8217;s, but they don&#8217;t stop to count the costs of what does <i>not</i> get done while he&#8217;s scoring cheap political points.  </p>
<p>Lots more in the <a href="http://www.eastvalleytribune.com/page/reasonable_doubt" rel="nofollow">East Valley Tribune</a> for anybody interested.</p>
<p>Yes, in an ideal world we would have more control over immigration, but &#8220;build a wall&#8221; or &#8220;deport and displace millions&#8221; are just stupid.  If you&#8217;re paranoically inclined (who, me?) you might even think the system is working the way it&#8217;s supposed to:  An easily intimidated pool of cheap labor <i>is</i> the American way to some people.</p>
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		<title>By: Paul Raven</title>
		<link>http://futurismic.com/2008/07/10/eu-asks-italy-to-stop-fingerprinting-gypsies/comment-page-1/#comment-15504</link>
		<dc:creator>Paul Raven</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 11 Jul 2008 07:00:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://futurismic.com/?p=3606#comment-15504</guid>
		<description>Docduke: so &lt;i&gt;some&lt;/i&gt; members of an already persecuted and marginalised minority have turned to crime, and that justifies treating all of them as criminals based on their perceived ethnicity? Transpose the nationalities; say the London Metropolitan started fingerprinting all US nationals? Liberty is for everyone, or it ain&#039;t liberty.

anon: criminals in the eyes of the law, sure; and I expect most of them are well aware of it, not to mention the risks they run by become undocumented immigrants - not just from the law, but from some citizens of the countries where they end up. Which makes you wonder just how bad things are back in their home country, that they&#039;re willing to accept a life of the fringe of the law rather than return... and how their home country got that way in the first place. Immigration - in the US, the UK and the EU - is the sound of chickens coming home to roost, an inevitable outcome of the old days of imperialism. If you really want to squash illegal immigration, push for greater enforcement of the minimum wage laws. If there weren&#039;t exploitative employers willing to hire them, they&#039;d soon return home.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Docduke: so <i>some</i> members of an already persecuted and marginalised minority have turned to crime, and that justifies treating all of them as criminals based on their perceived ethnicity? Transpose the nationalities; say the London Metropolitan started fingerprinting all US nationals? Liberty is for everyone, or it ain&#8217;t liberty.</p>
<p>anon: criminals in the eyes of the law, sure; and I expect most of them are well aware of it, not to mention the risks they run by become undocumented immigrants &#8211; not just from the law, but from some citizens of the countries where they end up. Which makes you wonder just how bad things are back in their home country, that they&#8217;re willing to accept a life of the fringe of the law rather than return&#8230; and how their home country got that way in the first place. Immigration &#8211; in the US, the UK and the EU &#8211; is the sound of chickens coming home to roost, an inevitable outcome of the old days of imperialism. If you really want to squash illegal immigration, push for greater enforcement of the minimum wage laws. If there weren&#8217;t exploitative employers willing to hire them, they&#8217;d soon return home.</p>
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		<title>By: anon</title>
		<link>http://futurismic.com/2008/07/10/eu-asks-italy-to-stop-fingerprinting-gypsies/comment-page-1/#comment-15502</link>
		<dc:creator>anon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 11 Jul 2008 02:29:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://futurismic.com/?p=3606#comment-15502</guid>
		<description>&gt;“crime sweep” publicity stunts target undocumented immigrants 

Oh noes! FSM forbid we target criminals. I can&#039;t understand what the big deal is when we arrest people who are here _illegally_.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&gt;“crime sweep” publicity stunts target undocumented immigrants </p>
<p>Oh noes! FSM forbid we target criminals. I can&#8217;t understand what the big deal is when we arrest people who are here _illegally_.</p>
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		<title>By: Tom Marcinko</title>
		<link>http://futurismic.com/2008/07/10/eu-asks-italy-to-stop-fingerprinting-gypsies/comment-page-1/#comment-15498</link>
		<dc:creator>Tom Marcinko</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Jul 2008 23:45:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://futurismic.com/?p=3606#comment-15498</guid>
		<description>If targeting an entire ethnic minority isn&#039;t a human-rights violation, then what is?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If targeting an entire ethnic minority isn&#8217;t a human-rights violation, then what is?</p>
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		<title>By: docduke</title>
		<link>http://futurismic.com/2008/07/10/eu-asks-italy-to-stop-fingerprinting-gypsies/comment-page-1/#comment-15491</link>
		<dc:creator>docduke</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Jul 2008 21:55:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://futurismic.com/?p=3606#comment-15491</guid>
		<description>I&#039;ve been on a couple of bus tours of Italy in the last decade.  In Rome, we were warned each time to expect purse-snatching attempts by gypsies.  Each time it happened to one or more people in the group.  The gypsies have no fixed address, so normal &quot;nonviolent&quot; procedures, like the U.S. catch and release, just don&#039;t work.  Fingerprinting makes sense, to identify repeat criminals.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ve been on a couple of bus tours of Italy in the last decade.  In Rome, we were warned each time to expect purse-snatching attempts by gypsies.  Each time it happened to one or more people in the group.  The gypsies have no fixed address, so normal &#8220;nonviolent&#8221; procedures, like the U.S. catch and release, just don&#8217;t work.  Fingerprinting makes sense, to identify repeat criminals.</p>
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